Curse

HigherMinion · Mar 01, 2011, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Panic is an over-rated elite. It's actually quite bad in 90% of PvE. I believe Fevered Dreams surpasses it's defensive purposes while adding extra damage and condition spread.

Discuss.

-Makai- · Mar 01, 2011, 11:42 AM // 11:42

And what condition would be worthwhile enough to spread? Daze and Weakness are the most important conditions in PvE and there's already non-elite AoE options.

HigherMinion · Mar 01, 2011, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Makai-

And what condition would be worthwhile enough to spread? Daze and Weakness are the most important conditions in PvE and there's already non-elite AoE options.

Let me think.

Cripple.
Cracked Armour
Deep Wound
Blind
Daze.
Weakness

If you could spread all these conditions to a whole mob within 3-4 seconds, how can Panic be superior damage mitigation?

Outerworld · Mar 01, 2011, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Makai-

And what condition would be worthwhile enough to spread? Daze and Weakness are the most important conditions in PvE and there's already non-elite AoE options.

Other than maybe technobable the non elite options are generally bad.

Elfblade · Mar 01, 2011, 11:48 AM // 11:48

I take fevered dreams for fragility and daze is nice in HM

-Makai- · Mar 01, 2011, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Let me think.

Cripple.
Cracked Armour
Deep Wound
Blind
Daze.
Weakness

If you could spread all these conditions to a whole mob within 3-4 seconds, how can Panic be superior damage mitigation?

The big advantage that Panic holds is in compression. Blind will only affect martial enemies and Daze only works on casters, therefore instead of spending a bunch of slots to spread conditions, you've got a one-shot, fire and forget hex that works on every single skill type. Also remember that Fevered Dreams doesn't work when a condition is refreshed, so applying conditions too frequently is a waste.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

Other than maybe technobable the non elite options are generally bad.

Weaken Armor and Enfeebling Blood are both excellent AoE options.

AndrewSX · Mar 01, 2011, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Phisic Instability beat both in largest part of PvE.

HigherMinion · Mar 01, 2011, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Makai-

The big advantage that Panic holds is in compression. Blind will only affect martial enemies and Daze only works on casters, therefore instead of spending a bunch of slots to spread conditions, you've got a one-shot, fire and forget hex that works on every single skill type. Also remember that Fevered Dreams doesn't work when a condition is refreshed, so applying conditions too frequently is a waste.

Weaken Armor and Enfeebling Blood are both excellent AoE options.

The only thing I could think of was bar compression. However, you run a specific bar for both builds, which people hold as "optimal". Looking at both builds in full, the damage and damage mitigation is far greater from Fevered Dreams bar.

Cast time for Panic is 1s~ Cast time for FD is 3s~including aftercast; 4s to apply every condition. But once you have cast Panic, you have dealt 0 damage, then you have WW and WD, that will only work if your Panic affected enough foes for the 3s duration to live out. Chaos Storm causes kiting and the condition stacking and Frag nuke doesn't.

@Above; you really expect a human to be able to constantly interrupt key skills and make constant knock downs? I don't.

AndrewSX · Mar 01, 2011, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Well, do you really expect a hero to be able to use Fevered Dreams to spread efficently conditions and daze mass of foes? I don't.

You didn't said best Elite for heroes/human...

miriforst · Mar 01, 2011, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Well i ususally used a fevered dream nuking build for pve/pvp before the update. The problem i had was the attribute splits led to a bit of a lack in inspiration magic for e-management but then after the update illusion got some hefty energy manging skills

Ill got try it out again, it was kind of effective with fragillity and as far as pvp goes we bashed the monks hard while having our warriors ganking them

Xsiriss · Mar 01, 2011, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Fevered is good for synergy with conditions obviously (so areas without fleshy foes etc...) and for single targets. Panic is in its own right epic, it doesn't need conditions to work and causes huge AoE interrupts. When it comes to standard mobs, in any mode, it's excellent at doing it's job. Unlike fevered it doesn't need conditions to cause any interrupion ( and even then it's only spells). Comparing them is pretty stupid as they have different jobs and different attribute lines.

HigherMinion · Mar 01, 2011, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

Well, do you really expect a hero to be able to use Fevered Dreams to spread efficently conditions and daze mass of foes? I don't.

You didn't said best Elite for heroes/human...

If this was about a hero, I would have posted it in the Heroes and AI section. I thought it was clear... Mentioning PvE skills should rule heroes out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Fevered is good for synergy with conditions obviously (so areas without fleshy foes etc...) and for single targets. Panic is in its own right epic, it doesn't need conditions to work and causes huge AoE interrupts. When it comes to standard mobs, in any mode, it's excellent at doing it's job. Unlike fevered it doesn't need conditions to cause any interrupion ( and even then it's only spells). Comparing them is pretty stupid as they have different jobs and different attribute lines.

Their jobs are the same. It's all about damage mitigation. The only difference with FD is that it actually does something useful at the same time, i.e. damage and speeding up kills.

Panic comes into it's own when you're balling up massive mobs of foes. If you Panic the BLA mob when they begin to amass 20-30 foes at a time, you will see a massive time gap where they can't cast or attack because they're being rupted to hell. Most mobs are not this big. In most areas you'll find mobs of 4-8. In those areas 1. You don't need the mitigation Panic gives and 2. You want to kill them.

Xenomortis · Mar 01, 2011, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Let's make clear some assumptions first.

1. Let's assume we're talking about player bars. Since Fevered Dreams is blatently beyond the use of a hero we'll ignore that.
2. Let's assume the player is capable of running both skills and their relevant bars to an acceptable standard (neither is particularly more demanding than the other).
3. Let's also assume a meaningful area. That is, one where enemy casters don't have long delays between casts, enemy physicals are a threat and mob sizes are typically greater than 5, ideally approaching 8.

The primary purpose of both skills is mob shutdown. The strongest aspect of Fevered Dreams is the repeated dazed application for interrupts and with that in mind, it isn't doesn't look too ridiculous to compare it to Panic.
However, Fevered Dreams requires a build to back it up; Panic doesn't. Panic's compression is a huge advantage over Fevered Dreams' necessary feeder skills. Panic bars can take other skills to fill other roles.
But if we're looking at merely shutting down casters, we're comparing Panic (a single skill) to essentially an entire bar. That's a little unfair.

Now, I could give some sample Panic bars and Fevered Dreams bars and run an analysis of each and compare, but that would require some accepted Panic bars and we would still need to hold in mind that Panic can function on its own and be run as an elite on what is primarily a support bar.

I will say this though:
I prefer Fevered Dreams bars over the common Panic bars. Certainly I think the FD bars beat the Panic bars in every aspect other than damage; that's including caster shutdown. Panic bars do very little against physicals compared to Fevered Dreams, which makes the FD bars significantly more versatile than the Dom heavy Panic bars. Panic's location in Domination is actually very limiting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Looking at both builds in full, the damage and damage mitigation is far greater from Fevered Dreams bar.

The damage from a FD bar compared to a Panic bar needs some examining. Both can easily take Cry of Pain and FD bars take Fragility and the two Norn shouts and very little damage beyond that (a little degen or some Earth damage from Ash Blast is not really significant). Panic bars often feature Mistrust (which is essentially a reliable 100+ AoE on threatening casters; see assumption 3). They can also pack Wastrel's Worry/Demise, although I debate the effectiveness of these skills. Chaos Storm is another feature I commonly see.
And of course, there's nothing stopping them from taking the same PvE skills as a FD bar for a more direct comparison.
I certainly don't think you can outright state that FD bars do more damage than Panic bars.

Really Minion; your topic of discussion is the wrong one.
What you wanted to say is "Here are/is the commonly used Panic bars/bar; I think these/this Fevered Dreams bars/bar is far superior. Discuss.".
And I think that highlights a problem with the discussion in general.

Gabs88 · Mar 01, 2011, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Fire and forget vs do this do that to make it work, easy choice for now. Maybe with 7 heroes that would change.

For a human, I wouldnt use either most of the time anyhow

Xsiriss · Mar 01, 2011, 04:28 PM // 16:28

It's mroe than damage mitigation. It's about flooring your enemies. Panic serves to deny healing, dangerous enemy spells (and their own interrupters) as well as general disrupting pretty much anything. You clearly have a hard on for FD, ignoring that it's a single target hex. This means not only no proper area of effect (weaken blood, cracked armour, b-surge all offer better damage mitigation) and can be easily removed. Panic is just slap it on and watch the madness. Mob size doesn't matter because at 10 fast casting it's recharged within 10 seconds, any number beyond 2 enemies makes it effective.

Cuilan · Mar 01, 2011, 05:57 PM // 17:57

I use Fevered Dreams somewhat often and didn't have an issue with it being a single target hex since there's daze and generally enough (AoE) cover hexes. Panic doesn't provide enough shut down for physicals or in general in areas where foe numbers are few or not in close bunches. Panic seems to have gotten the most attention for shut down and I see mesmer players using it while they could be using something else more worth while (simple short WiK quests, etc).

Outerworld · Mar 01, 2011, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Makai-

Weaken Armor and Enfeebling Blood are both excellent AoE options.

I was referring to daze in particular.

Chthon · Mar 01, 2011, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Panic is an over-rated elite. It's actually quite bad in 90% of PvE. I believe Fevered Dreams surpasses it's defensive purposes while adding extra damage and condition spread.

Discuss.

Generally agree. You need a very, very large mob for Panic to interrupt casters as well as FD does. And FD is a lot better at dealing with physicals. Neither build has fantastic damage output. Neither is great on damage, and I'm not sure which is better.

Kaida the Heartless · Mar 01, 2011, 08:00 PM // 20:00

I'll stick with Panic because the bar compression and ease of use is too good to pass up. Physical damage is really laughable given the skills that are already going to be on other bars in today's Meta (Aegis, Enfeebling Blood, Dust Cloak, etc.) so it's only the casters that are in issue.

Outerworld · Mar 01, 2011, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

I'll stick with Panic because the bar compression and ease of use is too good to pass up. Physical damage is really laughable given the skills that are already going to be on other bars in today's Meta (Aegis, Enfeebling Blood, Dust Cloak, etc.) so it's only the casters that are in issue.

Thats all well and good but why have anti-melee and anti-caster seperate when you can compress it into a single bar?